Fandom Unpacked

Turning Audiences into a Multigenerational Fanbase at PBS

• Situation • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Ever wonder why people proudly wear PBS merchandise as a badge of identity when nobody's sporting ABC t-shirts? Amy Wigler, Vice President of Multiplatform Marketing and Content for PBS, reveals the secret sauce behind one of America's most beloved media brands.

"Your memories of PBS take you back to a time... it's visceral," explains Wigler, describing how the network creates powerful emotional connections that transcend generations. This nostalgic bond serves as both a blessing and a challenge—how does a legacy brand honor its past while staying relevant today?

The conversation delves into the critical distinction between passive audiences and active fandoms. "Audiences create hits. Fandoms create phenomena," Wigler asserts, drawing from her experience with commercial successes like RuPaul's Drag Race and Broadway's Footloose. At PBS, where marketing budgets can't compete with commercial networks, fan evangelism becomes essential. The authentic community around PBS programming creates a special relationship commercial networks struggle to achieve despite considerable resources.

PBS's status as America's most trusted institution for 22 consecutive years stems from rigorous standards and a commitment to non-commercial content. "We are never trying to sell you something," Wigler notes, explaining why parents trust PBS without reservation. This dedication to integrity, while sometimes limiting from a marketing perspective, has created an unparalleled level of audience trust.

From strategic platform-specific content promotion to balancing nostalgia with innovation, Wigler offers a masterclass in nurturing multi-generational brand affinity. Whether you're a marketer, a PBS fan, or simply curious about how beloved institutions maintain relevance, this conversation provides valuable insights into the power of authentic connection in today's media landscape.

Recorded Thursday, February 27th, 2025
Hosts: Damian Bazadona, CEO & Founder, Situation, & Jordan Person, Managing Partner, Town Hall
Guest: Amy Wigler, Vice President of Multiplatform Marketing and Content, PBS
Producer: Peter Yagecic, Innovation Advisor, Situation

Peter Yagecic:

Thank you, partner for our sister agency, town Hall, jordan Person. They'll be chatting with Vice President of Multi-Platform Marketing and Content for PBS, amy Weigler. We wouldn't be here today without listeners like you. Here's Damien to get things started.

Damian Bazadona:

First off, I'm so excited to do this. Amy and I go way back, but I'd say Amy's the intersection of kind and smart, my kind of people, and so I'm just really thanks for doing this, amy. I know you got a lot going on, so I appreciate you taking the time to do it. And I know PBS we've already seen by the response. This is a big topic that people are very interested in. I have just the one burning question I have is and you've worked in the TV business, you've worked in the theater business, you've seen a lot of brand and fandom around different brands. What is it about the PBS brand? The special sauce, the marketer's dream of people's affinity towards the brand. People wear them the hats, the tote bag, like it's like a sense of identity and I find it awesome. And how would you?

Amy Wigler:

describe that special sauce that we also envious of. Well, you know I created that. No, there's something I was trying to think of what it is. First of all, when I got a phone call from pbs and they were interested in hiring a marketer, I I was like, oh my God, like what an incredible opportunity to combine mission and media. I love media, I love pop culture, but I also really do believe in the mission of PBS, and so it was. It was thrilling for me for the exact reason that you said. I also feel like we're at a time where letting your inner nerd shine is acceptable and applauded and I love that. But if I had to say what I think it is is it takes you back, thinking.

Amy Wigler:

Your memories of PBS take you back to a time it's it's visceral where you were a simpler time. I joke about it. I think about the time I'd sit in my house on the couch with my brother and we would play Ernie and Bert, and he was always Bert he's such a Bert and it just it's a joyful, joyful time and I feel that's it. It's visceral. Your memories of childhood will stay with you. And then what it means to you now, whether it's Downton Abbey. Or it's Nova or it's my dog barking in the background. Sorry, but it takes you back.

Damian Bazadona:

Well, I just sort of my own relationship to it, obviously as a kid growing up with it and now I have children, them, growing up with it and, I would imagine, as a marketer again. Like that's kind of interesting. It's got to be both exciting and challenging right At the same time of you have how do you kind of connect the legacy of people connecting with it and bringing new audiences in over time? I just have never seen a brand as good as PBS is doing it. So it's just it explains why there's such a deep connection to it. Jordan let me let Jordan in. And so Jordan is kind of the mastermind on our mission-driven side of the business and I know you have a lot of questions, so I'm going to pass it to you to drop some knowledge for us.

Jordan Person:

Great.

Jordan Person:

Well, I mean, maybe I'll just build on what you two were talking about, because you know, amy, it's funny even listening to you talk about, you know, sitting on the couch with your brother and fighting over who's Bert and who's Ernie.

Jordan Person:

I'm reminded of, and slightly embarrassed to say I remember sitting on the couch next to my son while he was watching Mr Rogers and I was pregnant with my second and I was, like, sobbing, sitting on the couch next to him watching it, you know, and he's looking at me like what's wrong, mommy, and to your point, it's like this visceral connection that you have to this material and to what it kind of evokes in you. And I guess you know, kind of building on what you're both talking about, with that nostalgia factor I'm wondering about. You know, how you think about the value of the back catalog, how you think about balancing some of that iconic classic programming that genuinely holds its value beyond just being nostalgic. It's genuinely holds its value today, to your point on, just like learning and kind of releasing your inner nerd. How do you think about balancing that against some of the new programming that is just as valuable and creating its own kind of place in the iconic PBS catalog?

Amy Wigler:

I think it's so interesting. For me it was Sesame Street I wasn't an electric company kind of kid, but God do I remember it and for me it was Sesame Street. That's what made me fall in love. But on social media it's very interesting on the individual platforms which brands Chalk Kids brands resonate and we use nostalgia a lot for fandom. We use nostalgia a lot for fandom. It really is a wonderful thing. So, for example, on TikTok it's the 2000s, it's Ruff Ruffman, it's Arthur, it's Daniel Tiger. On Insta it's much more about the 90s era, there's Fetch and there's Magic School Bus.

Amy Wigler:

So it depends on the platform where we'll leverage the promotion of the back catalog. Our goal with the back catalog is truly that Use it to make you remember how much you loved this brand and then make you check us out where we are today, Because I don't know if you have a child and you've seen Carl the Collector, it handles itself as well as anything else. Or Lila and the Loop, or Eleanor Wonders why, or there's just so much for new fans. And then also I look at the drama content, I look at the news content. There's so much there. We just need to be front of mind. So if I need to leverage my legacy to put our brand back in front of mind. I will do so front of mind.

Jordan Person:

I will do so. Well, one of the things that you mentioned when you were answering that question is you used, you connected the idea of the value of the back catalog to kind of activate fandom, and you know the series is called Fandom Unpacked. We use the word fans a lot when we're talking about their relationship to these brands, but and I guess this is like revealing the language nerd in me we also use the word audiences a lot and I'm wondering what you think, if you think there's a difference between fans and audiences, because I think sometimes we use those words interchangeably. But I'm wondering maybe they're not interchangeable. What's your take on that?

Amy Wigler:

I have been obsessed with fandoms my career, my whole career. I talk about it. The first musical I worked on was Footloose the Musical, and we had an audience. It wasn't sizable at first, but we also had fans. And we found a fandom in teenage girls this was the late 90s, the heyday of the boy band era. Teenage girls this was the late 90s, the heyday of the boy band era and young teenagers I think, like our staff at the time, where we are 33% higher at our youth our people under 20 than any other show on Broadway like we noticed that there was this fandom and what they did a fan evangelizes. They don't just want what they want for themselves, they want what they want for the world. They want to share this love. There's community in fandom. I don't know if there's community in audience. There's community and evangelists and fandom.

Amy Wigler:

And then I saw it with Drag Race, with RuPaul's Drag Race, which I worked on for 14 years and um, god, what an extraordinary thing to watch communities gather to celebrate this art that was created. Um. And it started with with, once more with a very small subset of the audience, and then it expanded. They, the super fans of the project, brought in there those who were like-minded and it became a phenomenon. I say this audiences create can create a hit. Fandoms can create a phenomenon.

Jordan Person:

I love that. That's so interesting, the idea of almost like audiences kind of being, to your point, very important, very critical, but almost static in a way, and then fandom kind of being this like X factor, this kinetic energy that can change the outcome of a piece of property, whatever that might be. So that actually leads me to your background, which you just gave two great examples on the world of commercial theater spending many years at Viacom working on beloved hits like RuPaul's Drag Race. Do you think there's a difference between being a fan of a commercial property versus being a fan of a non-commercial property? I mean, pbs is a nonprofit, pbs is an institution. How do you see a difference there?

Amy Wigler:

at all. I talk about this. I don't know if this makes sense, if this tracks, so you can say that's crazy, but NBC, cbs, abc have been around longer than we have, but nobody wears a T-shirt that says ABC. There's not a fandom there. I think when you don't have the budget and commercial although I've worked for some brands that have had some budgets I've never known anyone who said, oh, we have just the right amount of money to build something. When you don't have a budget that others do, god, it helps to have a fandom. So I would say we need it more. I don't have. You know, NBC now has such an incredible universe of properties where they can cross promote. Disney has a phenomenal fandom and they also have a universe of properties that they can cross-promote and they have budget. I don't, so I rely a lot harder on my fans for my word of mouth.

Jordan Person:

Well, that's really interesting because it almost to go back to even the kind of point of view you shared on audiences versus fans. It makes me think, you know, from a marketing and advertising perspective, you can buy audiences but you can't buy fans, and you know, kind of like to your point, what is that? The importance of that when you are, when you have to do more with less and that's a phrase actually you've brought to me and my team over the years is do less better, which I love. I find myself saying that all the time and it forces that kind of ruthless efficiency with your resources when you think about it through that lens.

Amy Wigler:

Unscripted town hall plug. You guys have been very, very helpful with do more with less. When we came to you, we knew we had a social media following. We are watching what is working and what is not, but we did not know how to quantify so it was hard to say do less, better, do what. If you're doing what is it? The old saying is I know 50% of my marketing is working, I just don't know which 50%, and you have been very, very helpful in providing a laser focus for what we're doing that's working. So do more of that becomes an easier question and I appreciate it.

Jordan Person:

Oh, thank you. That's very generous. And not to turn this into a love fest, but what I'll say, what I think what helps facilitate some of that work, is the kind of growth mindset that I see A you model to your team, but your team also has of this openness to kind of say anything's on the table, in with fixed assumptions or with a sense of certainty about what or what might be working or what or what might be right, but rather let's kind of explore this together and I think that's the fun part of what marketing and advertising is today is so much of that kind of team discovery, collaboration that can lead to some of those insights. Peter, I know that there's been some questions that have come through. Do you want to take the?

Peter Yagecic:

reins, absolutely. Yeah, we've gotten some just general love, question like question comments of just loving this conversation, but here's a question that came in when we were talking about the legacy. It occurred to me that for most of the people in the audience today, pbs has always existed and likely formed many of their earliest memories, as Damian alluded to. What are the strengths of that evergreen feeling, and maybe some of the challenges of, of an institution that's been around for so long?

Amy Wigler:

The challenges are real in that you want I want people to love us for who we are now. I want to lean into their love that they had for us in the past to remind them to check us out now. But the biggest issue with a legacy brand is you will always love it for what it was, and what it is will never be what it was, which is why I encourage people to check out something like Carl the Collector or we have All Creatures, great and Small, which I just think is escapist joy or like that. If you, if you ever were a fan of like absolute, serious, hard-hitting news, frontline does investigative journalism like nobody else, investigative journalism like nobody else. And if you're tired of algorithmic hatred driving your newsfeed, newshour is a pretty safe bet for very, very truthful media Like we have. So much. The blessing and the curse of a legacy brand is so much the blessing and the curse of a legacy brand is don't just love us for who we were. No-transcript, it's all available on the PBS app.

Jordan Person:

Well, I feel like along those lines. I mean to your point. You know I have a daughter who believes she is Daniel Tiger. My son is obsessed with Wild Kratts, like we all get sucked into watching Antiques Roadshow. All Creatures, great and Small, I can't plug enough. I feel like when I watch it, someone's giving me a warm hug, and who doesn't need more hugs these days? Watch it, someone's giving me a warm hug, and who doesn't need more hugs these days? You know like and that's not even mentioning Ken Burns, nova Nature, a Chef's Life is like in the food genre, one of just my favorites from the catalog. Outside of the challenge of balancing what's been versus what today is how do you balance just the diversity across programming today, the diversity I mean even just in my own family, the diversity of ages and people that are that you're trying to reach, to draw to this programming?

Amy Wigler:

It helps that I'm a genius and it's really hard, it's really hard and I have a. I have such a good team and we have great agencies that really help us. It's really hard and I have such a good team and we have great agencies that really help us. I think PBS's business models is such where a lot of our producers create their own short, their own digital short form content that we can elevate, and they are true subject matters experts. We work with the kids team has their own social media team. We listen to them and work with them closely too.

Amy Wigler:

We try and, for me, with where I'm mostly promoting the individual platforms is on social media and through programmatic advertising, and the platforms a lot of time dictate which kind of show will resonate with which platform. So, for example, um, if we have a documentary, we just did a documentary um, it was in think 2023 tiktok boom about it's frontline. I believe it's a frontline documentary on the history of TikTok and the show. I know, or I say I, my team, knew, that this show in particular would have tremendous appeal to 20-somethings, early 30-somethings, who are obsessed with TikTok, and what a better way to talk about this show than to do a PBS film club on TikTok and I think at last check it had over a million views and it's an incredible opportunity to customize my promotion of a show for the platform that will resonate with the audience, and we try and do that across the board.

Peter Yagecic:

Fandom Unpacked is brought to you by Situation, an award-winning marketing agency built for live entertainment that champions the power of unforgettable shared experiences around the world. We offer full marketing and creative services for experience-based brands in live entertainment, attractions, theater, sports, arts and culture, and more. Check us out at SituationInteractivecom. Now back to our Q&A.

Jordan Person:

You've been on the PBS team now almost five years. Over those five years, what's been your proudest moment since joining the team?

Amy Wigler:

I was so blessed that I got to accept the Webby Award for Media Company of the Year on behalf of the extraordinary work that the team has done.

Amy Wigler:

I felt so blessed that I got to stand on that stage and, by the way, afterwards Kara Swisher said she really liked my five-word speech, which was thanks to viewers like you and I'm obsessed with Kara and that was the highlight of my year year. But the fact that the webbies recognized that PBS is doing digital media in a fresh way and like my other five-year word speak would have been take that Netflix, youtube, hulu, but I don't think that was very kind or PBS-y, so I didn't say that. But it was a wonderful honor to see that and I really do feel slightly funky about it because I was sitting at a table of humans who did most of the work and I got to go on stage and Kara got to tell me that she liked my speech and that was a little awkward but God, it was the true highlight of my career that must have been so validating for the whole team.

Amy Wigler:

I hope they know how much I appreciate them.

Jordan Person:

Oh, I'm sure I'm sure, well, I know we're coming up on time and, peter, I know there's some questions.

Peter Yagecic:

Yeah, we have a couple more questions that we'd love to get in and just one editorial note as someone who cut the cord a couple of years ago, the PBS app is fantastic. It, compared to it Works, which is some of them just don't you know. Being able to go in there and kind of browse through the back catalog, it's phenomenal. My husband and I do it all the time. Of browse through the back catalog, it's phenomenal. My husband and I do it all the time. Here's one that touches on that multi-generational fandom. I fell in love with PBS when Mr Rogers was in his prime and my nephew has also fallen in love with PBS through Daniel Tiger, a program from the Mr Rogers neighborhood of make-believe. Is there anything you do specifically to foster that multi-generational fandom?

Amy Wigler:

for me, that's what always on is. We want to keep PBS in front of the pair, in front of as many generations as we can through a wide variety of programmatic tactics to keep us from in a mind, so that you're reminded of why you love this and then you can share it with someone you love. Um, I know that sounds so trite, but it really is. I think it's not like I have a budget that I set aside for multi-generational I wish I did. It's much more about just trying as much as I can to put our content in front of people who matter. And then we also have some learning media, which is the educational arm of PBS. I feel that helps a lot too. So there's very—that puts our content in front of students, so that makes them want to go home and talk about what they just saw. But at the end of the day— what I just try and do is remind people that we're here.

Jordan Person:

Well, it's also interesting just the idea of trust and I think how that plays multi-generationally. You know, I as a parent I try not to. I try to let go of guilt that I have about things. Sometimes I do have guilt Are my kids spending too much time on their screens?

Jordan Person:

What are they watching? Do I really know what they're watching? And I have to say there are times when I'm, you know, yelling at my son like what are you watching? What is that? And it's like I'm like what app is it on? And he's like PBS kids. I'm like great, okay, good and and. And I think that's so interesting that truly I have just this strong sense of trust that like I don't even know what that is but whatever it is, I trust that I'm good with you watching it. And that's when I kind of nerd out on the idea of like, what is people's relationship to some of these institutions? And to see how trust plays so heavily with PBS and how you all have maintained that is so impressive. I don't know if there's anything, amy, that you all do really intentionally to try to nurture and maintain that trust 22 years, the most trusted institution.

Amy Wigler:

I think. The courts are numbered behind us on this, which is shocking to me. We are unstinting in our commitment to our standards and practices. At times it drives me crazy when I first know. When I first started, I'm I come. I did a lot of partnership marketing. That was my. The last five years of Viacom was really focused on partnership and sponsorship marketing and I rely. I look at some of the brands that we've built through other people's money, Like I look at Absolute and the first five years of Drag Race. There were 160 events planned and paid for by Absolute to elevate this show.

Amy Wigler:

I don't do any of that at PBS because we are a non-commercial entity and our standards and practices are as buttoned up as I know how to be, and it is. They know how to be and whenever there is a possibility of quid pro quo, we step back, which I think builds a ton of trust with a parent. We are never trying to sell you something. I live for Kelly Clarkson like to a crazy lunatic standpoint. I would trust her to tell me to buy something, and sometimes she does and she has a line at. I think it's Wayfair. Um, we don't do that we really try to do right by our consumers, by keeping us as non-commercial as possible.

Peter Yagecic:

So so this last audience question that I think will be a good place to wrap. People want to know how they can help you in your cause. So I'm a proud member of my local PBS station in New York and PBS programming is very important to me and my family. What can I do to be a more vocal fan and ensure the future of PBS both in New York City and nationally?

Amy Wigler:

the future of PBS, both in New York City and nationally. Tell us your PBS story. Tell us why you're a viewer like me. You tell us your viewer like me story. Share it on social media. If you're not that person I have a hard time doing that Then, honestly, right now, the more you can do to evangelize the app, get people to watch PBS um. Get people to. A lot of people don't even know we have an app and that that's a place you can stream, stream programming um. Follow us on social media. Um. What I want to show right now is that there are viewers like you all over the country for whom this is a lifeblood, and if you've got a story to tell and you're not comfortable telling it, follow us. Listen to others, like and comment.

Peter Yagecic:

That's going to do it for this episode of fandom unpacked the podcast. If you liked what you heard, please be sure to leave us a review on apple podcasts. Find out how to join us live for an upcoming recording at situationlivecom. Fan. We'll see you next time, true believers.