Fandom Unpacked

Fandom on the Field: How Sports Move the Masses

• Situation • Season 1 • Episode 18

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What makes someone stick with a team through losing seasons, changing conferences, and shifting media deals? We dig into the core of modern fandom with Clinical Assistant Professor of Sport Management at the University of Michigan and co-owner of AFC Ann Arbor, Mike Lorenc, tracing how identity, access, and economics shape the way people fall in love with sports—and stay there. From the evergreen pull of a never‑ending story to the way leagues actually make money, we break down what sets sports apart from other live entertainment and why that matters for anyone trying to grow an audience.

We look closely at the new entry points for young fans: NFL‑backed flag football, the Olympic spotlight, and even video games that teach the language of a sport before a kid ever picks a favorite team. On campus, we face the squeeze of Name, Image, and Likeness, the transfer portal, and realignment eroding century‑old rituals, while student attention fragments into songs, FOMO, and social moments. At the same time, minor league clubs prove that intimacy and affordability still convert, especially when access to players turns a random night into a forever memory. And ticketing? It’s not a transaction—it’s the start of a relationship that begins at search, continues through smart, timely guidance to the right gate, and lives on with personalized keepsakes.

We also confront hard trade-offs: empty VIP seats that look great in revenue reports but dead on camera, versus supporter sections that power atmosphere and future demand. Along the way, Mike shares two truths leaders forget: fans choose us, and executives should buy and use their own tickets to feel the friction fans feel.

If this conversation gets you thinking about your own fan journey and how to grow the next one, tap follow, share with a colleague who needs to hear it, and leave a review to help more people find the show.

Recorded Thursday, October 9th, 2025
Hosts: Damian Bazadona, CEO & Founder, Situation & Maureen Andersen, President & CEO, INTIX
Guest: Michal Lorenc, Clinical Assistant Professor of Sport Management at the University of Michigan, Co-owner of AFC Ann Arbor
Producer: Peter Yagecic, Innovation Advisor, Situation

Peter Yagecic:

You're listening to Fandom Unpacked from Situation and INTIX, the podcast series where we unpack modern fandom with some of the brightest minds in sports and entertainment. I'm producer Peter Yagecic and joining me for today's QA are Situation CEO and founder Damian Bazadana and President and CEO of Intex, Maureen Andersen. Our guest today is Mike Lorenc, Clinical Assistant Professor of Sport Management at the University of Michigan and co-owner of AFC Ann Arbor. Here's Damian to kick us off.

Damian Bazadona:

Mike, thanks for doing this again. Always good to see you. How um let's talk about in the audience today, there's a range of live event experience folks that cover all realms of fandom. So from sports, but also culture, attractions, arts, you name it. Wide range of folks here. How do you think about, and you've worked across your life in Google and other universes, you and I, we've collaborated over the years across all different facets of live entertainment. How do you see sports fandom? What's different about sports fandom? Or overlapping, I suppose, with some of those segments, but what's what's different about it?

Michal Lorenc:

Yeah, so one thing I'll start is, and that's something I talk to my students a lot. So a lot of my students are sport management students. Uh I think it's really important for all of us to keep in mind that we're we're talking to people that are seeking entertainment. So whether it's sports, performing arts, music, theater, it's it's it's a form of entertainment. So that's what those individuals have in common. They're they're seeking out a way to spend some of their free time and hopefully some of the dollars to be entertained, to be inspired, to uh be in some type of a communal environment. Uh so that's the similarity. Probably the biggest difference when you think about sports fan, the definition of fan actually comes from fanatic. It's somebody that's more of an evergreen. I am a fan of Chicago Cubs, not just right now, but for a long time, whether they win or lose. So I think you have more of a longevity. Somebody can develop the fandom from early childhood and then kind of carry it on throughout. So, you know, from the business perspective, the lifetime value uh equation for a sports fan would probably be higher than somebody of uh of theater or even music because of the frequency of activities that they can go to and then the impact that can have. I think that's one big difference. Another one is just the way that sports, especially professional sports, make money, is very different than most other forms of entertainment. So, you know, they have more of a mix of revenue sources. It's not just ticketing. For many of them, actually, ticketing is a small part of overall revenue mix. They have sponsorships, they have merchandising, they have concessions, they also have media rights. So that's kind of like a very different equation. And sometimes it's comparing apples to oranges when you think about the economics of concert or performing gods venue versus a sports team or sports league.

Damian Bazadona:

Yeah, no, no, I agree. I think the touch points are just significantly different. And I also feel like all forms, all forms of most experiential properties come back to storytelling of some version. And the sports teams, I'm a Giants fan, it's a never-ending story, right? And right now we're in probably not the chapters you want to skip, but I've been in part of chapters in which they're winning. Um, and you know, I find the commonality is just like it comes down to storytelling, what attracts people to a lot of these things. But it's staying on that, I want to talk about growth. Um, I kind of want to just jump right into that topic because I think it's a big one about kind of growth of fan communities. And I think in the sports sphere, a lot of it is really how you were brought up. Is that a significant part of it, not all of it, what you were introduced to, right? Of how you come into something, whether you were brought up around a football family or a basketball, whatever that might be. Yeah. Um, how do brands, and I think this has been a challenge both for established brands, established leagues, but also startup leagues, about building, like, how do you either accept this and go at people who have a high likelihood, or how do you grow your audiences? I you I look at what the NFL has done. I think what the NFL is doing with flag football is actually kind of unbelievable. Where the idea of taking flag football, introducing it to young women effectively, really in high school, installing all these leagues. So now there's tackle and then there's flag football side by side as a way to grow the audience. I think the other, I'm a big into sort of flag football for my boys, but I think one of the big asterisk of that is they stop it at NFL does not sanction it after eighth grade by design. And so they've made these things like, oh, boys do tackle football, girls do flag football, like the way they're structuring it. But it's all about audience development in their mind. You could clearly see it. Tell me, what are you seeing in that space? Yeah. It's that, or what do you what do you hear and what do you see?

Michal Lorenc:

That that's so when it comes to sports, that's probably one of the biggest challenges and or opportunities. Uh, how do you develop the young fans? Uh so on one hand, when you look at the the viewership of professional sports, especially on broadcast TV, it's actually very old. All of the sports are over 45. Baseball, football are over 50, almost over 55. Wait, which is which is worrisome, you know, from the advertiser perspective, from you know, all of the other aspects. On the other hand, only about 30% or even less of young audiences under 25 actually watch full games live. They that they live in a in a highlights and short-form video kind of environment. So sitting two or three hours of watching a game is really, really hard. Uh now, yes, Debian, you're right. Historically, we became fans of typically our local sports because the media coverage was limited or was much deeper on the local level. Or we became fans of the teams or brands that people close to us, our parents, grandparents, our friends, uh introduced us to. Maybe somebody received a Dallas Cowboys jersey when they were eight years old, and they started developing that type of fandom. So that was kind of the traditional way, which was very tribal and very local from its aspect. With internet, with technology, uh, that has changed dramatically. So right now, I am not bound by geography. I can pick and choose the team, but also the athlete that I care deeply about. And I start I can start developing those relationships very early on. Now, what's really interesting is yes, you what you mentioned with the NFL, they for the longest time they didn't quote unquote have to worry about fans because they were always sold out and they had you know 20 million people plus watching every game. But I think there was this realization that they're risking losing some of the young kids. Uh here in the Midwest, uh, more and more high schools are struggling to uh field a football team because became less popular. So yeah, their approach is definitely double down on youth sports. And and right now, the flag football is this great, great avenue. It helps that flag football will be at LA Olympics. So that also it gives them opportunity to really have a kind of a high visibility platform to feature the sport, albeit slightly different, to global audiences. Actually, I think just last week they announced professional flag football men's and women's team. So they're already kind of growing bigger, but that's a huge part of developing their audiences. Uh soccer, very similar. Investing in youth sports and converting those young kids, boys and girls, into becoming fans of the sport. But it's not just a sport. For the longest time, uh FIFA, the video game, was one of the top three reasons that kids became fans of soccer. I think that's that's one aspect. You see NFL again or NHL partnering with Nickelodeon and making games almost feel like game entertainment. So I think, yes, I think there's there's this opportunity to attract younger audiences and to leverage technology to uh to go after those people in very in a very different, non-traditional way, and start developing those fandoms very early on.

Damian Bazadona:

And it's hard. I think the I think what's fascinating with a lot of people on this uh webinar can sort of attest to is the the there's a gravitational pull to do what's always worked and to target those who are already in the tent. And yet the growth opportunity is on the outside of how do you expand to new places, new audiences, new markets. That's that needs new talent, new investment. And I know that's usually a tug of the you got to keep those ROIs high on the revenue being the expenses to drive revenue, but if you want to build audiences to long game, it's it's a it's a totally different investment equation. Um Maureen.

Maureen Andersen:

Hi, Mike. It's nice to see you. Um, we I wanted to kind of move over to like ask you uh taking that same thread and moving it over to college sports, is that they're unique. We met in an environment of college football and college athletics. So uh I'm I'm and you're immersed in it now. Um so when you look at colleges, it's kind of like I see it as a double squeeze, is that you have an alumni base that has been cultivated over many, many, many years that may be aging out. You have new students coming in. And what what kind of challenges are they facing with fan engagement between those two audiences? And are they being squeezed? Is it changing profoundly? Now I have a second part to this question after that.

Michal Lorenc:

Yeah, so so oh my God, college athletics. We like, you know, when people say, may you live in interesting times, anyone affiliated with college athletics, like this is kind of crazy. Like, I love it right now. I'm I sit inside, I can see changes. I think I mentioned to you kind of earlier, students that are seniors right now, when they were freshmen here at the University of Michigan, Jim Harbour, their coach, got suspended for buying a $17 cheeseburger to a potential recruit. That was their freshman year. Now they're graduating, they're seniors. Three and a half years later, University of Michigan threw an alum, paid $10 million, not under the table, officially paid $10 million to attract a local freshman to play quarterback. You have the name, image, likeness, NIL. You have the transfer portal, you have potential entry of private equity into college, collegiate sports, you have the expansion of conferences and the impact it has on everything. So, yes, I think there are very significant changes that are happening to the whole fabric of college athletics. And there's also a risk. Uh, outside of a handful of schools, University of Michigan being one of those, there is uh a real challenge in attendance. Lots of college students don't come to football games as much as they used to be in the past. Number of schools are lowering now, number of allotments to students. Another challenge is that students that come to the game, they don't really come for football. They come for the camaraderie, they come for, you know, the Enter the Sandman, the Mr. Brightman song, and then they leave because they have so many exciting, more fun things to do later on. So I think the big question exactly is as you mentioned, alums were bred from people that went to school that really developed their experience and their loyalty to their brand because of the experience at the game, because of the camaraderie, because of some of the rivalries that have been for hundred years in some instances. Those rivalries are going away. The the Apple Cup or the Civil War are not the same right now that with the change of the Big Ten.

Maureen Andersen:

It's more difficult to infuse into the DNA, whereas use it used to be part of the entire culture from the day you entered a college.

Michal Lorenc:

Exactly, exactly. And then I believe personally that there's a big risk if if college sports becomes professionalized to the point of being almost as good as professional sports, but not quite as good because the level of talent is different and you miss you're missing out on the emotional collection, the pageantry of college football, you know, all of the alumni kind of the connections, then will people really tune in as much? Will they care as much? And if they don't care, will they support their schools when they graduate? So I think that's kind of the big changes that are happening right now that we don't have the answers for yet.

Maureen Andersen:

But what about minor league sports? When you think about what's going on kind of over in um with with minor league itself, I mean it's more accessible, but then you've got things like the Savannah Bananas and Cosmic Baseball, which is by, you know, out by the the Major League Baseball by MLB. Are these gateways, do they actually take people and make them fans? It does does minor league sport have some of the same issues?

Michal Lorenc:

Uh so yes and no. The sports itself is becoming really expensive and not as affordable as it was in the past. Uh professional sports are extremely expensive. For a family of four to go to an average football game, you look at $500 expense. Uh basketball, baseball, a little less expensive, but still that's a lot. So I think minor league sports, minor league teams have an opportunity to provide closer proximity and much more affordable gateway, access to the game itself. Uh accessibility to talent is very, very different. You know, the the the when you think of the spring ball for baseball. One of the key draws for lots of people is to be able to actually to interact with players. Minor league sports can offer that. My club, AFC Ann Arbor, always offers the the autograph line after every game, win or lose, rain or shine. And the kids that come to our games absolutely love it. They they they line up, they they they for them, meeting with collegiate athletes is is something that they'll remember forever. So I think there's opportunity. Now the challenge is uh minor league sports are not must-see events outside of Savannah Bananas and others. So you know, you are third or fourth in a consideration. Many of those teams don't sell out, so you don't have the scarcity issue. Um many of the fans come, they know they can get tickets. They will get tickets when the weather's nice and they have nothing else to do. So it's really hard to grow kind of the fan bases. So I think what lots of semi-professional minor league teams do, they try to create events. Savannah Bananas being a great example. It's almost a 4th of July parade and a circus and a baseball game all combined together. It's very high energy, it's it's exciting. I think the question is can you replicate it every week? Is it does it become stale after a while? Is that something that people will go to to see once or twice a year versus patronizing the same team multiple times throughout the season? So I think that's that's the challenge. Another thing, it's becoming expensive to run any sports organization. So many of those teams on the lower level, they they they start, they don't have media rights, which is a huge, about half of the revenue that professional teams draw. So without media rights, they have to lean in on tickets and sponsorship and merchandising to a much higher level. Uh, and and most of them lose money short term.

Maureen Andersen:

You brought up ticketing, so I'm gonna go there. So, you know, you often hear that ticketing is kind of like that first handshake, or you know, um, those of us in the business is like it's the first hug that a fan gets. And you and I both have talked about this multiple times about how far the technology and how fast it's evolved is how do you see sports teams actually using that ticketing moment, uh, that that that embrace to bring them in and to change them, to um move them along through the engagement process. But more importantly, what are we missing? Now that we have all these tools and we're we kind of get them there, what what are we missing?

Michal Lorenc:

Yeah, so there is lots of innovation happening, maybe not in ticketing itself, but in how you leverage tickets. So I think that's that's a that's a great example. So I actually, and I keep on saying it, uh, the relationship starts even before somebody buys a ticket. This is the the discovery phase when I'm looking for tickets. And you know, my my former employer for the longest time, when you when you search anything ticket related, those were secondary ticket uh platforms that were results one, two, three, and four. So, you know, in a way, kind of the people were the audiences were conditioned to look for any tickets, cheap tickets, on secondary platforms. We all know the relationship that you can develop when you actually get somebody directly to your site, how you can start building brand, building relations. So I think that's the first step, the discovery. How do you find out what's happening around me? Uh, how do you actually get access to tickets? What are the benefits of getting tickets directly from a venue or from a club rather than through their authorized reseller? So I think that's kind of one aspect. What I'm seeing a lot of good is after somebody buys a ticket, I think the sports teams are becoming much, much better at uh using their own media, email marketing, some of the pushes through through apps to make the experiences to get in the venue easier for fans. So, you know, it might be an offer to get discounted parking nearby. It might be a weather alert about what's happening. It might be, hey, alert, hey, there's six things happening downtown Detroit, so plan accordingly. It can also be transactional. You are in seat X, use Gate Y. Uh, how about pre-ordering some merge? Maybe you can reserve the bubble head if you signed up for it. So I think there's a ways to kind of do the moment between buying a ticket and somebody entering the venue as a way to make experiences much better and to market to them. Where I think we still can do much, much better job is to leverage ticketing data to make in-venue experience better. We know a lot about those people. How many times they go to a ballpark? Do they prefer a weekend or weekday? Do they buy one or four tickets? So I think there's a way kind of to make that experience better. And then I'm starting to see some kind of ideas around how do you maintain the relationship via ticket with somebody after the game has ended, after they left the venue. And I'm not talking about the basic remarketing on email, hope you had fun, come back to another game. Uh, Detroit Red Wings, uh, right around here, uh, they're starting their 100th anniversary and they're actually uh uh selling lots of commemorative tickets where you'll be able to, in addition to buying a ticket, to buy a physical ticket which will have some kind of a digital uh component, which people will be able to customize, adding the score, maybe adding a picture of their experiences. So I think because again, if we are in a memory-making business, we have ways to enhance those memories, not just during the game itself, but also afterwards.

Maureen Andersen:

It's also making sure that we paint the right pictures and that you know, with the personas and with the data and all of that, is making sure that we're we create, we're almost curators now of the experience and feeding it to them in a way that they want it, right? Oh, meeting where they are.

Michal Lorenc:

Yes, literally last week in one of my classes, we we did a buyer persona for a baseball team, and and we spent this class a lot of time understanding the differences between a single game buyer versus a group ticket buyer versus a season ticket buyer. And and yeah, again, combining the insights and data that you can have through ticket buying platforms, but then really painting the picture, understanding what inspires those people, doing a much better job, understanding it by a persona allows us to create those amazing storylines, which will get people to continue to patronize us and be our fans.

Maureen Andersen:

Absolutely. Hey, uh Peter, I see there's a bunch of questions coming in. You want to take an audience question?

Peter Yagecic:

Sure. Uh, and and I love that example of sending photos after the event. I know that happens when I go to Disney World. I get an email after I'm there with me on the roller coaster and me all throughout the park. So we know the technology's there. Uh here here's one question from the audience, Mike, that I'd love to get your thoughts on. You mentioned the internet enables fans to find new teams to love around the world, not just their local team. But sometimes it's still hard to actually watch those games that aren't nearby me. How can those in charge of promoting games help with that? Or uh can can technology help reduce the friction? What's your vision of what that could look like for accessibility to those games that might not be near me in a couple of years?

Michal Lorenc:

Yeah, no, that's a very, very challenging question from the business perspective. Like it it's it seems so obvious. Hey, more people should be able to watch the games no matter where they are. But media companies are spending literally billions of dollars securing media rights. Uh in 2025, a total of $25 billion has been allotted just to secure the big five, big six sports media rights in the US. So the media companies are really incentivized to try to find the best way to recoup their investment. And with declining rates of cable ownership, now in the US under 50%, the reliance on pure advertising model is kind of uh diminishing. So that's why you see number of streaming services or some kind of a pay-per-view where we are asking people to buy to watch games. Uh now you see it a lot on again the tribal-ish sports, sports that historically have really relied on some of the local sports networks, baseball, hockey being great examples, NFL, football, and basketball, uh they secure lots of big rights and they're thinking about going global. So it's a little different approach. So uh but as I mentioned before, watching game doesn't mean committing three hours to watch the entire game. So I think where technology can really help is to push lots of content and give the snackable ideas, highlight the the you know the key plays, but also show things outside of the what's happening on the field, what's happening kind of in the stadium, and push it to people that want to watch it. So it's not no longer just watching the entire game, it's how do you find the content in a way, in a format that as a consumer you're best used to, you're best equipped to do.

Peter Yagecic:

Oh, I'll I'd love to sneak in one more audience question before I kick it back to Damien. Um, if universities can't keep students for the whole game today, what will that mean for the volume of alumni fandom in five to ten years? Any ideas how to reverse that trend of current student attention deficit?

Michal Lorenc:

Yeah, so I I I joke that the the average attention span of a goldfish is eight seconds, average attention span of my students is six seconds. So it's actually shorter than a goldfish and and and and and and it's showing. It's showing it at university. So right now, the young audiences, the college students, it's all about FOMO. They they don't want to miss out on a cool event, cool activity. Uh and so, yes, if you have uh an artist or when you have a cool song that's being played, if there's some kind of a cultural activity that's happening within the game, they'll stick for that. Uh short term, when it comes to alum supporting, short term, ironically, NIL changes have helped because lots of alums realize that they can support their universities with money that goes directly towards acquiring talent. But I think that's that's short term. I think the question about long term is you know how how do you build loyalty? And it's not just a problem in college athletics, entire marketing, entire business, the the younger audiences are not as loyal to brands that they have been in the past. They change it frequently. I think sports, college athletics have been holding on to people sticking with their loyalties, having their one or their two teams kind of forever. But I think the risk is that they won't care as much later on.

Maureen Andersen:

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Damian Bazadona:

Let's talk a little bit about, you know, sports fans are obviously incredibly diverse. And for leagues, talk about some of the bigger leagues, I suppose, right? They're like you got season ticket holders, you have casual event seekers who are trying to come in that are they trying to build these audiences. There's just something, and we talk about this a lot on this podcast, is this idea of like legacy versus kind of, you know, the way things have been versus the way things are and where they're going, inviting people into the tent. Um, I think as an NFL fan, I think one of my favorite is when I tell people I watch NFL Red Zone, and which is effectively every touchdown from every play within the 20-yard line, you know, or that window of time is. Anyone who's an actual football fan is like, that is just terrible. Like, how on earth they find it like sacrilegious. Like, what are you crazy? And uh, but I find it like so. This is gonna be a struggle, and we've talked a lot already on this in this conversation, but I think it's fascinating about like navigating those two streams of like the the the spectrum of fandom and their connection to it, but how all those people live together in kind of under these ruse when they come together. I think about things like political stands, all these things of how you know who it's I just find it interesting. What what are you seeing? What are you hearing?

Michal Lorenc:

Yeah, no, great question. So, you know, it kind of depends who you talk to. When you talk to anybody on the revenue side of the of the of the house, they they all they're they're tasked with maximizing revenue. So, how do you maximize revenue? You use dynamic pricing to try to come up with the maximum amount that you can get per ticket. You create VIP environment as close to the field as possible. Uh, but it's kind of pricing out of fans. So I'll I'll give you like a real example, literally from last night. Uh I was watching the the Tigers game and then the Yankees game, uh, as well as the Cubs game. So Chicago Cubs, my my favorite team, uh, they did not monetize the the, you know, that they did not put the VIP sitting kind of behind the home plate. And when you watch the game, it is absolutely amazing atmosphere. Everybody's standing, everybody's looking and watching. And then you turn to the the Yankees or the the Tigers, where they have amazing home plate club, uh, which looks half empty or 30% empty during elimination game playoffs. Again, from monetization perspective, when you talk to people that run that, they made way more money. They they they catered towards the the VIP customer, they they did their right thing, but you're alienating and you are not giving opportunity for some of the hardcore fans to embrace kind of the same experience. So I think that's a big challenge. Now, compare that to what uh Steve Ballmer did with the the the internet arena uh with the Clippers, where he basically created a sitting which is a replica of Duke basketball, where you know the the the most ardent fans, the loudest ones, will be the closest to the action. I think soccer does a very good job creating subhored sections where those are the fans that will stand and chant and wave their flags kind of the entire game. And that atmosphere's pulling in lots of people. So again, the push and pull of what's good for short-term revenue versus what's good for driving the fandom is is real. And there needs to be the right balance. And sometimes it might take an owner, somebody that's above the VP of marketing and VP of revenue, to decide what to do. Because short-term professional sports have lots of opportunities to maximize revenue by creating VIP experiences. Same with performing arts, theater, and others. Uh, but again, though those fans are not the fanatics. They're not the most loyal, ardent fans. They use the access to venues for different reasons. Those are companies, those are uh business individuals who are whining, dining, entertaining others. Uh uh, they don't necessarily have the same level of engagement and kind of the stake as other fans.

Damian Bazadona:

You know, Mike, I had in my notes, I was literally going to use that example from last night. I saw the same exact thing. And it's absolutely nuts. And then you look into like the bleacher creatures, you couldn't even fit an inch between people. It was like so jammed and people going excited, particularly the Yankee game. Yes. I was just saying to myself, oh Mike, it was a it's so funny we use the same example. Um my head was like, oh. Uh Maureen.

Maureen Andersen:

So, you know, when you talk about the you know, the fan and the love of the sport, I mean, not everybody can be the Denver Broncos that holds the NFL record for the most every single game is sold out regardless of how they're playing up and down since 1970 or something. So you are a marketer, you came from Google with your data, you know, you know technology. So we've got AI, streaming, social. How are the entry points for fandom and sports and love of sports teams changing? And how can you leverage those?

Damian Bazadona:

Yeah.

Maureen Andersen:

And are we doing a good job?

Michal Lorenc:

I I think we're doing a decent job. I think we can do a better job. So, no, the the traditional marketing funnel, attention, interest, desire, action. You know, it's it's it's it's it's almost too simplistic. Uh always I tell my students, Ariana Grande, seven rings. I see it, I like it, I want it, I got it. So, so again, like the professional sports have no trouble with the attention, the high level. And some of it is, you know, it's it's it's part of part of the culture. We talk about it, people talk about it, the sports betting, uh, network. So attention is there. Interest and desire. I think that's where we should be able to leverage more data to you know to segment the audiences a little better, to really start understanding on the granular level which of the people that are aware of that verb broncos actually are really interested in going. And of those that are interested, how many of them realistically can? Can go and what touch point or what storylines will get them to get there. So that's kind of you know the the interest towards desire. Uh I think traditionally digital marketing has been very good at auction by now. No, use your search campaign, uh, identify people that are at the very bottom of the funnel. The top of the funnel is kind of easier, but the middle of the funnel, I think that's where we could do a much better job, and that's where technology can come in very, very handy. Uh uh, we talk about buyer personas, but realistically, every customer is unique. Everybody might have a different challenge. So that's where you can use technology to try to scale some of the messages. Create, if not one-to-one marketing, you know, and multiple buyer personas and multiple paths to purchase and scale it quickly. So people that are interested in winning versus tradition versus FOMO versus I have people coming in this weekend and I'm looking for something to do to show them where I live, they all have different messages and we can find them and entice them to consider our club. So I think that's one aspect. Another one is sports, entire performing arts uh is all about storytelling. So creating the compelling stories and getting people to be engaged and to love and to really care. I think that's something that some teams do it better than others. Ironically, all teams do it very well within the arena itself. When you think of the fan cam or the lookalikes, uh, I think there's a way to bring some of that into kind of the real world. Some of the most viral videos around sports have been not around the highlight of the game itself, have been around the interaction of a fan with their favorite player. Or, you know, the the somebody catching the baseball and giving it to a kid, or some kind of a reunion. So there are all of those kind of emotions that are built in that we should be able to highlight in a better way.

Maureen Andersen:

Emotion, I think it's great. Capturing emotion, and then you know what we didn't talk about and probably don't have time today is is the persona of price sensitivity.

Michal Lorenc:

Yes. Oh, again, I uh you know you you've heard me talk a lot about I I worry about US consumer. Uh I mean that's the the fact that buy now pay later is so prevalent in ticket buying is a is a problem. Yeah, coachella. But your opportunity right now. So yeah, I think price sensitivity and and and people still want to get entertained, people still prioritize experiences over things, but there's a threshold and they they're they're they're looking at their budgets, which again, data market the right marketing can help you with that. Uh, but yeah, that's a separate conversation.

Maureen Andersen:

Hey Peter, do you have more questions? Thank you, Mike.

Peter Yagecic:

Yeah, I want to I want to get in one more audience question because I think this plays really well into the storytelling and the emotion that you were just talking about. This is a fun one that's come up in a few other uh episodes of the series. Mike, what sport do you think is due for the streaming series treatment? A la Welcome to Rexum or Drive to Survive.

Michal Lorenc:

Yeah, so I truly believe that the the growth, the hypergrowth of women's sports deserves closer look, kind of the behind the scenes. So no, the the NWSL or for me, I would love to see a professional hockey team, a woman, women's professional hockey league, uh PWHL, get more of a kind of the insight. You know, when you think about anything from uh how do you actually attract the players, the uh the the female players kind of dealing with anything from from the recovery to motherhood, uh to having to play in venues that were designed and built for men. Uh the different ways that you attract, uh sponsorship. The fastest growing sponsorship right now is around women's sports. Private equity is getting into women's sports. So I think there's lots of very rich content. I know Ted Lasso supposedly will concentrate on women's team. Welcome to RexCom has a women's team, but I think a deep dive into professional or semi-professional women's sports from both on the field as well as off the field and the the players' perspective would I'd watch it.

Peter Yagecic:

Yeah. Well, I our our former guest, JC Dehoop from The Gist, would would love to hear that answer too. So I'm going to make sure she she hears that. Uh Damien, uh kicking it back to you to take us home.

Damian Bazadona:

All right. Let me just say up front, by the way, Peter and Maureen, I just love spending time with you guys. Actually, this is actually the highlight of my week to do these. Um, Mike, thank you. And you were always extraordinarily giving with your time, uh, always bringing knowledge and wisdom truly. Uh, and it's just I we all genuinely appreciate it. Um you're not hard to schedule because you're like, I'm game. You let me know how and when, and it really means a lot. You do a lot of good for a lot of people. Um, let's talk about. You have sat, I'm I'm going a little bit back to your your Googler days, but like you sit across, you were sitting across the table from all these decision makers, how they're spending their marketing dollars, how they're making investments. Tell me about what's a universal truth about fandom that you've seen that you feel like sometimes these leaders just forgot in the process or continuing to forget that you you would share.

Michal Lorenc:

I so I'll I'll give you two. One of them comes the higher end, one of them more tactical. I think the higher end, people choose us. And it's all about passion and energy. So I think sometimes we we talk a lot about you know the FTEs or business component, kind of people coming in, but the seats to fill. Uh, but but sometimes we forget about the the deeper connection with all of the performing arts or live events. This is people making memories, this is fathers and mothers bringing their kids for the first time to kind of create something that's everlasting. So that can be kind of lost in translation when you have a very business-like decision. I think that's something that's that's worth kind of keeping in mind. Uh, you build a very long-lasting, you have a chance to build a very long-lasting, meaningful relationship with those consumers that transcends one of transaction. On a tactical level, on the ticketing side specifically, and Maureen, you'll appreciate it. I one of the my favorite questions that I ask, especially the very senior people in a room, was when was the last time you bought a ticket to your own event? And you'd be and you'd be surprised how few, because I don't have to, because people give me tickets. When I go to somebody else, they they will comp me, I will enter. But actually, having S VPs of ticketing, having to go through a process of finding and buying a ticket to their event on a mobile device was kind of comical. So I think that's something that we forget. You know, the the the old kind of adage, put yourself in a consumer's shoes and actually go through the process. Try to find a ticket, figure out exactly where the ticket is. Okay, when the email confirmation ends up in your spam folder and you don't have an assistant that helps you find it, how do you navigate it? So going through a very granular process of finding, buying, and then redeeming using ticket without the VIP treatment has been very eye-opening. And I think that's something that's really, really critical for the senior people to do. Like how hot is really the section 300 at 1 p.m. in Tampa, Florida? And do you really expect somebody to spend $175 to sit there? So again, those are some of the experiences. So experiencing what you want people to experience uh can be very critical. And sometimes, or too often, unfortunately, people in the decision-making capacity don't have to do it, therefore they don't do it.

Maureen Andersen:

Well said. It's one thing, Mike, to sit at your computer and do A-B testing, you know, all over the place and just looking at, you know, websites and all that kind of thing. It's another to get out of a chair and go and look at your fan and be a fan and go through your own process, right?

Michal Lorenc:

Exactly. Exactly. So I think the challenge to everybody, kind of on on this podcast, do it. Buy a ticket to one of your events and tell us, or tell yourself what you could do better.

Peter Yagecic:

That's gonna do it for this episode of Phantom Unpack the Podcast. If you liked what you heard, please be sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Find out how to join us live for an upcoming recording at SituationLife.comslash fan. We'll see you next time, true believers.